schmevil | I need a word...

I need a word...

That describes the sexual relationship between an older person and a younger, underage person. Pederasty would be perfect it weren't just m/m. I need the most generic, yet descriptive word possible.

ETA: I'm not looking for a fannish term - without exception, the existing terms are gendered. I'm happy to define a new term but I haven't the lingual expertise.

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I'm a bit confused - why doesn't pederasty work? It is about an older person and younger person, and it is m/m.

Bleh. Sorry, I'm tired. Post is now edited to reflect: if it weren't just m/m.

I see. Well, while pederasty traditionally means m/m it's been used since the late twentieth century as a synonym for pedophilia. But, yeah, I wouldn't use it either. Depends on the context - is pedophilia wrong?

It's for archived fic warnings. Not many people would be willing to archive their chan or shota con under pedophilia. While I'm not fond of the type of fic...

Hah! No, I very much doubt that would seem appropriate. Now I hate the vague use of "chan" as much as the next person, but obviously that's the category most people use - or "underage sex" which is just as imprecise. So is it a more accurate alternative to "chan" you're after?

Is it typically only m/m. We're looking for a nonfannish term because I honestly don't think anything currently used is at all useful. Intergenerational could be Snape/Dumbledore or Ginny/Moody. It could be any number of pairing types.

Yes intergenerational can be any number of pairings where age differences (and what comes with itthemmatter. Why is Ginny/Moody something you wouldn't want to include?

Underage sex is out because it can mean two people who are considered minors, not just one. Chan typically means m/m yes, but given how imprecisely it is used I don't see why that matters. It certainly is also used for f/f and m/f, though rarely.

"Chan" is really -- I mean as it's used in contexts like this -- an appropriation of a Japanese shorthand which itself adapted affection for children into eroticisation of children. There's no point trying to get back to the "real" meaning of chan right now because it's been firmly invented as a cross-fandom term for sex involving minors. The problem with it is that it's not specifically used to talk about adult/minor pairings. It doesn't, therefore, exclude girls but is also in places used to talk about minor/minor pairings (m or f doesn't matter). It's still under negotiation, in other words, and some people won't want to call their stories "chan".

I think you're talking about "age of consent" stories, even though these are not always explicit about their address. It fascinates me that stories which negotiate age of consent narratives are never minor/minor pairings but always adult/minor pairings. And I suspect that chan, if it ever gets pinned down, will end up being a shorthand for that, but it's too loosely thrown around right now. I don't think you're going to find anything else though, that describes what you want without straightforwardly describing it as "adult/minor" (which for me begs all the questions such a story raises but which no one who wrote one could object to) or using some thematic descriptor like "age of consent" which some people will reject as not what their story is "about".

So, my call would be "adult/minor" and I'd use it even if I wasn't happy about it -- although people will try to take you on about what constitutesd a minor in say wizarding culture or elvish culture, but you're never going to be able to describe this dynamic in a way people won't resist. Please let me know if you do find something else.

Why is Ginny/Moody something you wouldn't want to include?

Those were example pairings. I was merely trying to point out that intergenerational can mean any kind of intergenerational story, not specifically youth/adult.

Age of Consent is problematic for say, AU fiction, where a lack of consent laws/customs is posited. We're going to use ephebophilia as the standard warning and allow writers to include additional warnings. It's not a recognized term but it's specific and once explained, difficult to misunderstand. We're still negotiating the child/adult issue. It's not something I'm personally comfortable with, but we shall see.

Ephebophilia (adjective, ephebophilic): a paraphilia of the eligibilic/stigmatic type distinct from nepiophilia and pedophilia in that the age of the partner is postpubertal and adolescent [from Greek, ephebos, a postpubertal young person + -philia].

But ephebophilia is considered a disorder -- it names a psychosexual disorder. It's pedophilia with adolescents.

I wouldn't put my stories under ephebophilia for that reason, and it's also really problematic, I think, in terms of its conception of youth as not-agent, although that's perhaps more specific.

If it's your archive they're your rules but, yeah... for what it's worth.

I've also never heard of ephebe not referring to young men. I don't have my greek dictionary here, but I'm pretty certain.

Though I'll drop it now, this is one of my pet things so you'll have to forgive me wanting to be precise about it... by "conception of youth as not-agent" I mean, ephebophilia is entirely about the desire of a person past their majority for one under it, it in no way allows for any desire or interest the other way. In fact "ephebe" presumes for most writers incapacity for desire or agency, and for others is a bit like the the most coy meaning of "ingenue".

I've never written anything that would go under the "chan" heading, but I've written about it.

How about "intergenerational"? It's what I used most generically, because it doesn't imply older-to-young desire exclusively.

Isn't that typically called chanslash? (I could be mixing stuff up...)

Chan refers almost exclusively to m/m relationships. It's also highly imprecise.

Cross-gen or crossgen is used in some places (like FAP) around fandom to mean cross-generational, usually student/adult. It doesn't necessarily require underage though, since a lot of authors age the younger person up.

Chan (and even chanslash) have begun to be understood in a non-gendered way sometimes, although I agree there's potential for confusion.

I would probably put in separate warnings of "cross-gen" and "underage", although that's not an ideal solution . .

I didn't want to have multiple warnings for the same phenomenon and I really didn't want to warn for crossgen in general. Underage was problematic because of international laws and customs. We decided to go with ephebophilia, a Greek term which is heretofore unknown to fandom. Obviously readers and writers will have to adjust, but we think it will solve the problem.

Hmm, I don't know of a one-word term. Is it a site whose audience understands the slash to indicate pairing?

If so "of age/underage" might be a possibility, although like adult/minor it has the problem that it's not the same for all countries.

*nods* That's an interesting suggestion but like you said, it's problematic in terms of international law and custom. We're going to go with a non fannish term: ephebophilia. Of course, we'll have to define it for readers and writers, but I think it will work out in the end.

If you're looking for a word with a negative connotation, there's the term "cradlerobber". There's also "May-December" romance, but that's kinda wordy.

Naw. I was looking for something for an archive, so the more neutral the better. ;)

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