schmevil: (jean)
schmevil ([personal profile] schmevil) wrote2009-03-11 02:02 pm

creator/fan space

Culled from [livejournal.com profile] badficwriter's post about how Scans Daily is changing, some of of my comments on the creators in [livejournal.com profile] scans_daily dilemma:

Regarding the creator/fan issue, the trouble is that in comics fandom, those spaces are already blurred. The comics industry and fandom is a drop in the proverbial bucket, compared to SW, ST or HP. It's a small world, and one in which there are fewer barriers to entering creatorhood. As hard as it is to break into comics professionally, it's a lot harder to become a movie director, or a billionaire novelist. We're in a fandom in which potentially, any of us could become creators, and in which creators are also operating as fans. Remember, we have a lot of members who produce their own webcomics, or are artists and writers working for small presses. Some of whom were using [livejournal.com profile] scans_daily to promote their work.

We're also looking at increasing numbers of creators wanting to get in on the action; to try to steer the conversation to their advantage, and use fora like ours, to promote themselves and their work. And although it might be more comfortable for us, we can't keep them out. We can't put up an anti-creator firewall. What we could do, is be as unwelcoming as possible to creators, but that amounts to a) begging for trolls; and b) excluding people like Gail Simone, Kurt Busiek, and Warren Ellis, who've figured out how to navigate the uncertain waters of creator/fan interaction on the internet. So the dilemma becomes do we exclude all creators, or find a way to potentially let all creators in? A community can't cherry pick its membership and still be open and welcoming - I think that would change the SD culture far more than moving away from creator-evisceration (live on channel 5!).

I don't think we have to kiss ass to be welcoming to creators. I don't think we should kiss ass. If I wanted to spend my fannish time fawning over say, Gail Simone, I would be on a Gail fansite, singing her praises. I also don't think that we're being ruled by the will of corporations. What we're being ruled by, is common sense. If we can't keep the creators out (and do we want to, completely?) then we have to live with them. We fans make up the majority of SD's population, and as such, we have more power to shape how creator/fan interactions will play out here. Yes, creators bring with them their creatorly power (a certain amount of authority to speak about their work, and the comics industry as a whole), but they are stepping into our space. We have a certain amount of ability to make those interactions work for us, and likewise, we have to bear a some responsibility for when they go pear shaped. Barring outright ignorance or trolling on the part of creators, which hey, in no way is on us. Or creator and corporate attempts to shut down our discussion, which again, is not on us, but instead reflects on their fear of fan power (fan space) chipping away at theirs.

And look, many of our conversations here will continue to be uninteresting to a lot of creators. Being less overtly hostile to creators doesn't mean they'll suddenly descend on us, in a flurry of self-promotion. Dealing with fans, even ones as mild as us *cough* are a challenge for quite a lot of creators. The fact is that some will never be interested in deepening their relationship with us - I hardly think we have to worry about Frank Miller showing up and complaining about his work not getting enough love.

Our particular fannish expression exists in a legal gray area (and it's a very dark shade of gray). We've seen our community shut down, and some of our members threatened. Right now, not just the rules, but also the community norms are in flux. None of us know what this community will look like in six months. I for one vote AWESOME, but, yeah. That's up to you guys too. :)

It's my opinion that we can being critical without being vitriolic. We can hate, with the power of a thousands suns even, without shaming ourselves with nastiness and outright abusiveness. And ultimately, I don't think that creator-bashing is an essential part of our culture. (Maybe comics culture as a whole, but...)

[identity profile] jeff-morris.livejournal.com 2009-03-11 07:30 pm (UTC)(link)
I hardly think we have to worry about Frank Miller showing up and complaining about his work not getting enough love.

Not that we should ever complain, ants and eagles etc. etc. etc. :)

I've given this more thought than it deserves, probably. I figure that s_d was the latest version of fanfiction; the powers that be certainly knew about it, but so long as it wasn't shoved up in their face, they didn't have to act upon it. Once they were forced to acknowledge it, the walls came tumbling down.

So there's the problem, and considering the background of the writer who started the ball rolling, I'm frankly stunned that he was the one who forced Marvel's hand (and by extension, LJ). Should there not be an understanding (unspoken or otherwise) that creators are welcome so long as they abide by the "don't shove this in our face" credo? Sadly, I don't think we can expect that.

I still suspect that said creator's hissy was caused by that last page showing up (even under a link). But if s_d continues under any type of form, such things are always going to be lurking in the shadows waiting to bite us in the behind.

[identity profile] triestine.livejournal.com 2009-03-11 08:39 pm (UTC)(link)
*stands and applauds*

What puzzles me is that if one takes scanned images - and with them legal matters - out of the picture, the community becomes nigh-indistinguishable from fora devoted to book criticism. Those have been around for a long time, they have been much harsher, and the few writers who engaged in direct complaints (hello there Anne Rice!) were rightly ridiculed.

Is it because the comics community is so small and, like you say, easy to get into professionally (in the sense of doing it as work and, if lucky, money) without having to learn other layers of professional conduct, that so many of its creators don't seem to realise that once a work is published, it's out of their control in terms of reception?

[identity profile] gailsimone1.livejournal.com 2009-03-11 09:49 pm (UTC)(link)
Honestly, I hadn't looked at posting at SD as being an inconvenient game-changer OR a place to hype upcoming work. I just thought it was a nice community. If people would prefer creators not post, I think that's perfectly understandable, and I could simply do my cheering from the sidelines as a lurking non-participant.

Any way it ends up, I think it's vital that it remain reader-driven even if it has the tacit or implied approval of publishers and creators. It doesn't work when it becomes a series of ads or shrines.

Best,

Gail

Chefs in the Dining Area

[identity profile] hohaiyee.livejournal.com 2009-04-16 12:49 am (UTC)(link)
I don't think the presence of creators should change how we behave in the fan sphere, and it is still the fansphere. Just because the chef is out in the dining area doesn't change it from being a place where food is being eaten, and commented on. If someone can't handle criticism, they are the ones who needs to leave.

We shouldn't comment with flames to the creators when they are in the forum, but I think that's already covered in the we shouldn't flame other members clause. Like, in response to a post detailing how Joe Q has further ruined Spiderman, I think it's perfectly reasonable for a fan to express that Joe Q sucks...but Joe Q was to show up and comment, it is not acceptable to reply to him in the you suck format. If they are communicating to us using the tools of community members, they should be treated as community members, no flames no sucking up.