creator/fan space

[schmevil]

Culled from badficwriter's post about how Scans Daily is changing, some of of my comments on the creators in scans_daily dilemma:

Regarding the creator/fan issue, the trouble is that in comics fandom, those spaces are already blurred. The comics industry and fandom is a drop in the proverbial bucket, compared to SW, ST or HP. It's a small world, and one in which there are fewer barriers to entering creatorhood. As hard as it is to break into comics professionally, it's a lot harder to become a movie director, or a billionaire novelist. We're in a fandom in which potentially, any of us could become creators, and in which creators are also operating as fans. Remember, we have a lot of members who produce their own webcomics, or are artists and writers working for small presses. Some of whom were using scans_daily to promote their work.

We're also looking at increasing numbers of creators wanting to get in on the action; to try to steer the conversation to their advantage, and use fora like ours, to promote themselves and their work. And although it might be more comfortable for us, we can't keep them out. We can't put up an anti-creator firewall. What we could do, is be as unwelcoming as possible to creators, but that amounts to a) begging for trolls; and b) excluding people like Gail Simone, Kurt Busiek, and Warren Ellis, who've figured out how to navigate the uncertain waters of creator/fan interaction on the internet. So the dilemma becomes do we exclude all creators, or find a way to potentially let all creators in? A community can't cherry pick its membership and still be open and welcoming - I think that would change the SD culture far more than moving away from creator-evisceration (live on channel 5!).

I don't think we have to kiss ass to be welcoming to creators. I don't think we should kiss ass. If I wanted to spend my fannish time fawning over say, Gail Simone, I would be on a Gail fansite, singing her praises. I also don't think that we're being ruled by the will of corporations. What we're being ruled by, is common sense. If we can't keep the creators out (and do we want to, completely?) then we have to live with them. We fans make up the majority of SD's population, and as such, we have more power to shape how creator/fan interactions will play out here. Yes, creators bring with them their creatorly power (a certain amount of authority to speak about their work, and the comics industry as a whole), but they are stepping into our space. We have a certain amount of ability to make those interactions work for us, and likewise, we have to bear a some responsibility for when they go pear shaped. Barring outright ignorance or trolling on the part of creators, which hey, in no way is on us. Or creator and corporate attempts to shut down our discussion, which again, is not on us, but instead reflects on their fear of fan power (fan space) chipping away at theirs.

And look, many of our conversations here will continue to be uninteresting to a lot of creators. Being less overtly hostile to creators doesn't mean they'll suddenly descend on us, in a flurry of self-promotion. Dealing with fans, even ones as mild as us *cough* are a challenge for quite a lot of creators. The fact is that some will never be interested in deepening their relationship with us - I hardly think we have to worry about Frank Miller showing up and complaining about his work not getting enough love.

Our particular fannish expression exists in a legal gray area (and it's a very dark shade of gray). We've seen our community shut down, and some of our members threatened. Right now, not just the rules, but also the community norms are in flux. None of us know what this community will look like in six months. I for one vote AWESOME, but, yeah. That's up to you guys too. :)

It's my opinion that we can being critical without being vitriolic. We can hate, with the power of a thousands suns even, without shaming ourselves with nastiness and outright abusiveness. And ultimately, I don't think that creator-bashing is an essential part of our culture. (Maybe comics culture as a whole, but...)

Comments

[jeff-morris.livejournal.com]

I hardly think we have to worry about Frank Miller showing up and complaining about his work not getting enough love.

Not that we should ever complain, ants and eagles etc. etc. etc. :)

I've given this more thought than it deserves, probably. I figure that s_d was the latest version of fanfiction; the powers that be certainly knew about it, but so long as it wasn't shoved up in their face, they didn't have to act upon it. Once they were forced to acknowledge it, the walls came tumbling down.

So there's the problem, and considering the background of the writer who started the ball rolling, I'm frankly stunned that he was the one who forced Marvel's hand (and by extension, LJ). Should there not be an understanding (unspoken or otherwise) that creators are welcome so long as they abide by the "don't shove this in our face" credo? Sadly, I don't think we can expect that.

I still suspect that said creator's hissy was caused by that last page showing up (even under a link). But if s_d continues under any type of form, such things are always going to be lurking in the shadows waiting to bite us in the behind.

[schmevil.livejournal.com]

Yes, we ants will just huddle here in our hill, grateful that eagles don't show their terrible.. visage? ...plumage? Something. We're grateful when they don't show up. *g*

I do wonder how long it will be before someone complains to IJ about us, or even if they will. They could choose to just not be bothered with us. Pretend they don't know we moved, and save their energy for trying to take down Pirate Bay (ha! good luck). What I'm sure they also know, is that we can just keep creating new sites, as fast as they take us down. So just how worth their while is coming after us? I guess we'll find out. I do think that there are plenty of creators who are willing to look the other way, even now, and there are for damn sure lots of creators who want to seem just like any other fan.

I've been in the fic side of fandom for years, and in the last five or so years, it's started to mainstream. Not through any efforts on the parts of fic writers to publicize their activities - far from it. But instead from cool hunters; creators and commentators who want to appear 'in the know'. It'll interesting to see if scan communities proliferate in the wake of our TOSing.

[schmevil.livejournal.com]

Also, yeah. I continue to boggle at the Creator Who Shall Not Be Named reacted to seeing his work on our comm. I... kind of expected him to have a better understanding of the conventions of fandom and internet conversations. At least enough to know that there are better ways of resolving things, than jumping in and arguing with posters.

But if s_d continues under any type of form, such things are always going to be lurking in the shadows waiting to bite us in the behind.

And yeah. Unavoidable.

[jeff-morris.livejournal.com]

Again, I don't think it was "seeing the work", I think it was "seeing the spoiler" that set him off.

[schmevil.livejournal.com]

*nod* He does have an irrational hatred of spoilers.

[foxhack.livejournal.com]

STEPHANIE BROWN FANS UNITE!

Oh wait -

[schmevil.livejournal.com]

Fuck it, let's unite anyway.

*unites*

[triestine.livejournal.com]

*stands and applauds*

What puzzles me is that if one takes scanned images - and with them legal matters - out of the picture, the community becomes nigh-indistinguishable from fora devoted to book criticism. Those have been around for a long time, they have been much harsher, and the few writers who engaged in direct complaints (hello there Anne Rice!) were rightly ridiculed.

Is it because the comics community is so small and, like you say, easy to get into professionally (in the sense of doing it as work and, if lucky, money) without having to learn other layers of professional conduct, that so many of its creators don't seem to realise that once a work is published, it's out of their control in terms of reception?

[jeff-morris.livejournal.com]

In older terms, yes, it is out of their control. In terms of S-D, however, it's not because it's tangible and permanently visible (at least until the community is zapped).

I keep wondering what the difference is between S-D and the library, myself...

[triestine.livejournal.com]

Heh, I've been wondering the same since the 'Byrne Theft' was brought up. If reading something without buying it constitutes theft, then libraries are the biggest pirating sites around.

re: library and fandom and fans

[hohaiyee.livejournal.com]

I was following CLAMP's xxxholic through the volumes available in the library before I finally brought one, and shall get more if my budget loosen up. I read most of CLAMP's Tokyo Babylon series in the library before I brought 6 out of 7 volumes (they were out of the last one on that day and I haven't got around to it).

If there weren't comics in the library, I would never have read any, comicbook stores aren't exactly all over town.

If it weren't for scans_daily, I wouldn't have been interested in Marvel, I was more of a Batman fan, when Batman is confined to Batman and not the sprawling DC universe. I strongly dislike the tactic of forced crossover where it doesn't work. That's what stopped me from reading the comics after I got interested through the shows and movies, before I discover wikipedia and other sites that list out the storylines, so I won't be confuse when I pick up a volume.

If they want people to keep buying their comics, they should focus on making it good instead of stupid marketing gimmicks, and consider all the things that are driving fans away. If they want people to start, they need to agree to leave places like scans_daily and comic wikis and libraries alone, because it's unrealistic to expect potential new fans, people who don't know what comics are, to just buy all the series from start to present and read them all to get involved.

[parsimonia.livejournal.com]

IIRC there was a judge here in Canada who said that online file-sharing seemed to be no different than using a library. I'm pretty sure it wasn't defined as legal, but that it wasn't illegal enough to mean that ISPs had to fork over info on their clients who were file-sharing copyrighted material.

That being said, I have no idea what the state of the matter is now.

[gailsimone1.livejournal.com]

Honestly, I hadn't looked at posting at SD as being an inconvenient game-changer OR a place to hype upcoming work. I just thought it was a nice community. If people would prefer creators not post, I think that's perfectly understandable, and I could simply do my cheering from the sidelines as a lurking non-participant.

Any way it ends up, I think it's vital that it remain reader-driven even if it has the tacit or implied approval of publishers and creators. It doesn't work when it becomes a series of ads or shrines.

Best,

Gail

[jeff-morris.livejournal.com]

The problem isn't with creators posting, Gail (and by the way, I'm a HUGE fan). It's the situation where a creator makes the community's presence known to the higher-ups and legal eagles, who then can no longer play "see no evil, hear no evil, report no evil" and have to do something about it.

And as things stand, what can anyone do about it?

[schmevil.livejournal.com]

I think it's obvious now that some creators, you among them, are welcome by all but the most ornery of the membership. So I would say, keep posting, we like you!

What we're working out now, is who we are when we can no longer keep up the illusion of SD being by fans, for fans only. I say illusion, because there's been a creator presence on the comm for some time. What we won't become, is a shill for Big Comics. (Big Comics - hee!) Some people have suggested that one way to keep the comm from having future legal troubles, is to partner with publishers. That's not even option, because as you say, it's not SD if it's not reader-driven, and it can't be reader-driven if the content we post, and how we post it, is determined by someone other than the readers.

It's... community growing pains. :)

[schmevil.livejournal.com]

PS just because I'm not singing your praises doesn't mean I don't love your work. SECRET SIX IS LOVE OMG.

[badficwriter.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure I'd want to put in the work I do on a post, if I thought I was just a free advertiser. I'd rather we went down to single panels rather than sell ourselves for the pretty. It's hardly right if s_d is held to stricter standards than the blogs out there.

And XDoop says Tinypic has canceled his account for Tos violation BTW.

[schmevil.livejournal.com]

I'd rather we went down to single panels rather than sell ourselves for the pretty.

Hells yes. There's no way I would be part of a sponsored Scans Daily. Waste of my fannish time.

And XDoop says Tinypic has canceled his account for Tos violation BTW.

I remember him saying something about that. There's also the Photobucket issue. I think I'm going to start watching these things very closely.

Still loving that icon.

[badficwriter.livejournal.com]

Just did a quick look back...most older Marvel isn't touched, unless it belonged to Doop. Drsevarius' Daredevil post was also tinypic deleted, but that was the climactic stuff from a one week old comic. The two pages from the equally recent War of Kings is still up.

reader driven review format?

[hohaiyee.livejournal.com]

Perhaps a stricter enforcement of Fair Use, leading to a series of wordy comicbook reviews with a few scans?

Scans heavy posts are attractive, like, sometimes I just don't feel like reading a word post. I liked going to scans_daily where there are posts featuring scans that interest me, whether they were in context or not. Plus, I bet it's easier to moderate image posts eh?

What I'm envisioning is, any member reads something that interest them enough to post, they write a short review, with related scans embedded within, and I think that's definitely Fair Use right? Unfortunately I don't have access to a scanner right now, but what I'll like to do later, is to take the review I wrote on FF4's 1989/1990 adventures for noscans_daily, and repost it with related scans on the Insane Journal community. I did spent words on how the art style took some getting used to, but it's not quite bad...no man has Reed's muscular bulk in that style, but at least we don't have women with boobs bigger than their heads and waists only twice the size of their wrists...

Like, Rotten Tomatoes with pictures?

[stubbleupdate.livejournal.com]

I'm not in favour of becoming creator hostile, as some other people have suggested, or making them unwelcome.

I get the impression as people feeling that creators are cramping their style, like seeing your dad in the pub when you're on a night out. They aren't going to do anything, but it can make you watch your own behaviour in an arena that you don't want to.

I like having creators hanging around.

[schmevil.livejournal.com]

Agreed. :)

[kali921.livejournal.com]

Then can you offer some very specific clarification as to what we can and cannot say about creators, and how it will be policed by you? Because the last time I looked at the rules for S_D 2.0 and NS_D, it was anything but clear. (Granted, it's been ten days since I looked at the rules, and they may have been changed or clarified.) In the absence of specifics the possibility of very arbitrary modding looms.

Chefs in the Dining Area

[hohaiyee.livejournal.com]

I don't think the presence of creators should change how we behave in the fan sphere, and it is still the fansphere. Just because the chef is out in the dining area doesn't change it from being a place where food is being eaten, and commented on. If someone can't handle criticism, they are the ones who needs to leave.

We shouldn't comment with flames to the creators when they are in the forum, but I think that's already covered in the we shouldn't flame other members clause. Like, in response to a post detailing how Joe Q has further ruined Spiderman, I think it's perfectly reasonable for a fan to express that Joe Q sucks...but Joe Q was to show up and comment, it is not acceptable to reply to him in the you suck format. If they are communicating to us using the tools of community members, they should be treated as community members, no flames no sucking up.