schmevil | Lj politics and politics on lj

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Lj politics and politics on lj

heathersy wants her flist to put their political ramblings behind a cut tag. Her reason? Fandom does not share a political hive mind, and calling the other party a bunch of evil, inbred yahoos does not endear you to your fellow fen who vote for them.

If I was American, I would vote Democrat. They're the closest it gets to my own political goals without going with a fringe-party. The Green Party is not only still very, very fringe - talk to me when it's about policy - but they're also unrealistically unwilling to compromise. I'm not an ideologue and I have no interest in associating with ideologues. Ideologues are so busy shining with their passion for the Truth, that they're blinded to their own idiocy.

Supporting Bush is not an act of evil.

Supporting the war in Iraq is not an act of evil.

Supporting a ban on gay marriage is not an act of evil.

Supporting the Republican Party of the United States of America is not an act of evil, no matter what some lobbyists may tell you.

Generally speaking, evil takes far more concerted effort than any politician is capable of, being mostly concerned with getting re-elected, and making enough deals to get his or her pet bill on the books. Politics, is by necessity, a dirty game where you make a lot of compromises, especially when you're trying to do what you think is the right thing. It's a hell of lot easier to keep people happy by sitting on your ass and rewarding cushy contracts to supporters, than it is to take a stand. I have nothing but respect for the politicians who actually DO THEIR JOB, even if I don't agree with their goals.

Not considering the other guy's position isn't evil. It's dumb. Likewise, assuming that you have the Truth on your side.

I don't think we should be cutting political commentary. I do think that we, as a community, could stand to be a little less blissfully reactionary about American politics, and entertain the notion that someone just might not agree with us. We* spend enough time qualifying our arguments about canon in order to avoid starting flamewars (god forbid someone disagree with your masochist!Peter essay) that we should damn well know how to do the same for other kinds of posts. Just as masochist!Peter is open to interpretation, so are the evils of the Republican Party.

Dammit.

* Of course, by 'we' I mean those of us who don't spend most of their time trying to yank other people's chains. Heh.

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I've considered the other side. I've been studying them for 25 years.

Hence my contempt and outright hatred. (For the leadership and what they stand for, not for everyone who votes for them).

The people who tend to express the most political rage on LJ, in my experience, are the ones who know the most. And anyone who think's that belongs behind a cut (I'm know that's not you, Space Kitty) is welcome to unfriend me at any time.

Cannot seem to get words out of keyboard today.

Revised:

I've considered the other side. I've been studying them for 25 years. Hence my contempt and outright hatred. (For the leadership and what they stand for, not for everyone who votes for them).

The people who tend to express the most political rage on LJ, in my experience, are the ones who know the most. And anyone who thinks that political opinions, however strong, belong behind a cut (I know that's not you, Space Kitty) is welcome to unfriend me at any time.

Actually, I've always thought the inverse. The most intelligent arguments for gay marriage I've seen have been behind cut tags and mildly but logically written. On the other hand, there the ones in big block rainbow letters that *blink* and use the f-word a lot. Quite possibly, these people are well-informed political citizens not a) ideological lunatics b) youngsters playing with HTML for the fun of it, but I'm skeptical. Well-informed political citizens are usually less enamoured with font effects.

NM

My opinion comes from knowing people on LJ well, and what they think. Long posts are often behind cut tags for length, but not intensity: they contain many of the strongest opinions and some of the strongest language.

The people who tend to express the most political rage on LJ, in my experience, are the ones who know the most.

This hasn't been my experience. The people who are most informed express rage in a reasonable, directed way that doesn't indict some 50% of America. Much of the political rage expressed in this part of fandom has been loud, uninformed and careless. Basically of the "OMG Bush is teh suX0rz" variety. I can understand how a conservative might be annoyed or feel threatened by a barrage of that.

The issue to me isn't cutting, (though I think Heathersy's plea for cut tags is indicative of the pervasiveness of the above type of post), it's courtesy. And yes, I'm totally aware of how silly it is for me to be asking for courtesy -- it's just that I don't see how any of us is served by berating the other side, especially when the other side is made up of friends.

I DON'T think political opinions belong behind a cut. The only things I think belong cuts are memes, quizzes, pics, long posts, fics and spoilers. Full stop. That's the bare minimum that courtesy (as far as I'm concerned) requires. Anything else is discretionary. Actually, I think that people should cut less. I hate seeing people cut for 'whining' or ranting. You should be able to let it all hang out. Your journal, do whatever you want with it. Blah blah.

I think we're just understanding different things by "rage." I don't think the rage of the informed is any less intense than that of the uninformed, nor do I think that "directed" rage is less, um, rageful.

And of course I am talking about ongoing experience with journals; that is, where I regularly read someone's journal that may one day have a political essay, another a link to an informative article, and another day a post saying "Fuck the 28th amendment, Bush sucks," and little else.

I wasn't trying to suggest that informed rage is less rageful (*g*). It's certainly not any less intense than drive-by rage. Just that informed rage, over the course of time is less like a baseball bat of a friend, and more like an impassioned argument and honest opinion.

It's harder to know where you stand when a person's journal is regularly apolitical and suddenly breaks out into "BUSH SUCKS! ALL BUSH SUPPORTERS MUST DIE!"

Besides, it's *boring* reading all this American stuff.

It would be *fun* if it was all "Belinda Stronach the barbie doll" and "Stock in a Wetsuit" icons, or "Which Ralph Klein are you?"

NM

Ooh. I want a Stock in Wetsuit icon!

::applauds::

Thank you! It's about time the fandom realised that the world does not revolve around America and some people can get tired of reading about the politics of a country that does not concern them the majority of the time. It's also about time that the fandom realised that conservative is not another word for evil.

It's about time the fandom realised that the world does not revolve around America and some people can get tired of reading about the politics of a country that does not concern them the majority of the time.

My LJ is for me to say whatever I want to say, and if someone has it friended just for fandom stuff and doesn't want to read the personal stuff, then they're welcome to skip on by, or take me the fuck off their reading list. It's my journal and I'll say whatever the hell I want to say. If you don't want to read about American politics, nobody's twisting your arm to stick around the journals of the American fen.

Hear, hear. Thank you.

Livejournal doesn't revolve around fandom any more than fandom revolves around America, does it?

You and I don't think so, but I guess some people do.... Funny, I thought there was a whole wide world of interesting and important Real Life stuff out there.

Where the hell did you manage to get that from? Both of you. I said that the world doesn't revolve around America. I never said the world revolves around the fandom. Perhaps you should learn how to read properly before you decide to comment.

Is this supposed to be directed towards me? Because I don't even know you and do not have you on my LJ friends list. I would really appreciate it if you did not make nasty comments directed towards people that you don't know.

I don't mind people writing about American politics in their journals. After all, it's their journal. But I would never defriend them simply because they ranted too much about American politics or if I disagree with their opinions. But that said, I would still prefer if they gave their opinions behind a cut tag.

I'm still rather bewildered that you chose to make a personal attack on me when I don't even know you at all.

It is not directed at you personally, no.

However, I will say that I resent your implication that Livejournal should revolve around fandom. I think that's just as faulty as for people to think that fandom revolves around American politics.

I never meant that LJ should revolve around fandom and I'm sorry if you got the wrong impression from my comment. I actually enjoy reading people's RL posts and I do enjoy reading posts about political and current affairs (I make quite a few of them myself). :)

I suppose I was just a little annoyed sometimes the majority of my friends list seems to be talking about some political event in America. ::shrugs:: America is not the entire world.

Could it be because the majority of your flist are Americans? :)

Yet more proof of the American conspiracy to take over lj.

:p

Yet more proof of the American conspiracy to take over lj.

*shrugs*

Hey, Bush already called dibs on the rest of the world: all we peons have got left is LJ.

; )

Ha! How long until warring "Not My LJ" banners start popping up?

"OMG! STOP THE INSIDIOUS AMERICAN ONSLAUGHT!!!!!!"

Followed shortly thereafter by the American flag with the big "No" circle-thingey on it. (Sorry, late, brain cells going on strike.)

Well, MHC, your LJ is free terrain. It doesn't have a flag. ;)

Probably.

::sighs::

Sorry if I managed to inadvertantly offend you. I'm not some sort of Bush minion, if that's what you think. I'm actually quite liberal on most issues. I'd just really like to know why my comment was so... well offensive?

Because Americans are getting a lot of abuse for the last year or two about thinking we own the world (in thanks to our idiotic un-elected government trying to, well, run the world) and it is a very sensitive topic. So sensitive in fact that some overly sensitive people get miffed when someone implies that LJ has been taken over by those arrogant Americans and don't they know that we all are sick of their whining? It's hard to be us, yo (LOL). It's open season to pick on America these days.

That might be because to me, at least (I won't speak for

bonibaru) your post seemed to have a decidedly anti-American bias, at least to my eye. Why didn't you say you were sick of seeing all political debate/news/rants in fandom?

But you didn't: you singled us out.

You're entitled to your opinion, but if you air it in a public forum or a friend's journal, be prepared for reactions. I certainly respect your right to air it, but I'm not going to sugarcoat how offensive it sounded to me.

Firstly, I'm not anti-American. If you don't believe me, I suggest you ask people on my flist.

I didn't say that I was sick of seeing all political rants because frankly, I'm not. I would like to read more about British politics. I would like to read more about European politics. Hell, I have plenty of Australians on my list, so why not about Australian politics. I *like* reading about American politics to a certain extent. It's when I'm reading post after post rehashing the same information, that I feel that people should probably put it under a cut tag.

But since obviously everybody is against me on this issue. Fine. I can skim read perfectly well. You're all entitled to say whatever you want on your own journals.

*<3's your icon*

I think it's interesting that while you choose to react directly on Ayla's post ypu left

narcissam's
Besides, it's *boring* reading all this American stuff. go totally unnoticed.

I quite frankly am bored by the whole American election posts. I would love for people to cut-tag their rants just like I would love for every post over half a page be cut. Because everyone who posts a political rant should be aware of the fact that part of his/her friends-list does not live in the same country.

I also have carpal tunnel syndrome. Scrolling too much hurts :)

*massages your wrists*

Thank you! It's about time the fandom realised that the world does not revolve around America and some people can get tired of reading about the politics of a country that does not concern them the majority of the time.

1. My journal does not exist only for fandom issues. I have other interests, and as it is my journal, I shouldn't have to censor it for someone else's tender political sensibilities. One of the most powerful uses of the Internet is its ability to encourage debate and disseminate information, and it's a valid use of personal LJ space. A dedicated message board would be another matter.

2. Oddly enough, I [American] do have an interest in the politics of other countries which may or may not concern me. I love to read about my Friends' reactions to their own political developments. If you don't, then

bonibaru's advice is eminently sensible.

3. Neither is liberal another word for evil, which is precisely the rhetoric the current administration appears to be attempting to spread along with its proposed inclusion of discriminatory language in our Constitution -- a frightening development. This is perhaps why you're seeing so much commentary (not that you care, as you are "not concerned"). Perhaps you're one of the fortunate ones whose country wasn't dragged into the war on America's coat-tails? No friends or family at risk in the military, for example? Lucky you. It might be better if more people did realize that what the government of one nation does can adversely affect others.

4. Saying that the fandom as a whole has either opinion is a gross generalization. Fandom is A) a subset of the population of the entire (wired) world, and B) belonging to a fandom does not preclude being an individual with strong personal, moral, and political convictions.

In other words, perhaps you might want to exercise tolerance, start de-Friending, or learn to skim.

Word.

Anyone who's bored or offended by my blatherings (well-informed or not) on any number of topics (including, but not limited to, fandom AND US politics, 'cause the US is where I live and all) is welcome to skip over, argue in comments, or just plain ol' defriend. But my LJ is MY LJ, and my flist is diverse enough that just about anything has someone who's interested in it or agrees with it even if any given "you" isn't/doesn't.

As for the political stuff...well, I don't think it's responsible to act as if caring about politics is something we can choose or not choose to do, like an interest in stamp collecting or skiing or what have you. The way the world is run affects us. Those of us in democratic/republic countries have a voice, however small, and therefore a responsibility to educate ourselves, think about it a great deal, and make choices.

And frankly, I don't want any bigots on my flist; I don't care how great their fanfic is.

I'm not sure how much of this is directed to my post, but.

I wasn't suggesting that people should shut the fuck up about politics and talk more about fandom, NOW! I was trying to point out to one section of my flist - of which none of the posters in this thread are a part - that they were making another section of my flist feel uncomfortable. I dearly love political discussion, but I dislike posts which are so one-sided as to be bullying. I don't care who's making the post, or what position they're arguing, calling the other side names and questioning the sanity of its members does not an intelligent post make.

American liberals feel threatened right now, and some of them are talking about that on their lj. Some express hatred toward a regime that is royally screwing them - and from their POV - their country over. Sometimes that turns into bullying. "Republican? How can you possibly be a Republican?"

I'm just trying to say that this is a really shitty way to behave, no matter how threatened you feel.

My post wasn't directed toward you, no: it was toward the respondent who clearly feels (or perhaps doesn't, but who may have poorly expressed what they did intend) that somehow the American fen are cluttering up fandom space with political posts in which the respondent personally has no interest. That's quite a different issue than either the cut-tag or the "Teh suXor!" issue. (I don't appreciate the latter myself, either, though I have certainly been known to use excessive sarcasm and satire....)

For myself, the political situation terrifies me (both the internal and foreign policies), and sometimes that comes out in a rant, like anything else one may be frustrated with or frightened about. I'm sorry that the individual above finds that tedious and annoying, ...wait, no I'm not. I'm not going to apologize for their viewpoint, and it's their problem, not mine. I am sorry if you felt it was directed at you, because it wasn't.

1) I don't care what your journal does or does not do. I don't have you on my flist. Should I care what you think? No.

2) I am also interested. To a certain extent. Yes, many people on my friends list are American. Yes, I do like reading their opinions, but when I hear people from almost every country debating the American election as if that's the only election on earth, well, it gives me an uncomfortable feeling. I am in no way anti-American nor anti-America. If you don't believe me on that, it's your choice.

3) I never said liberal was a word for evil. Most of my friends are liberals. In fact, on many matters, I myself am a liberal. Actually, I live in Australia. We *were* dragged into the war with America. Most of us disagreed with the war. I admit, I don't have any family in the military, but that's only because I'm first generation Chinese Australian. Most of my family is back in China. But I dare say that at least a few of my friends have family in the military. Contrary to what you might think, I do care about them, but there comes a stage where I begin to think that there is *too* much discussion about America. America is not the centre of the world.

By the way, I also said "does not concern them the majority of the time". Not *all* the time as you seem to have read. The *majority*. Just as Australian politics won't affect you the majority of the time. In fact, our politics rarely will affect you, with a few exceptions like the recent free trade agreement.

4) I'm not sure what you're talking about with this point. As far as I can tell, I did not state that the fandom as a whole had "either opinion". What opinions are you talking about?

Overall, I'm sorry you think I'm a narrow-minded intolerent person but perhaps *you* should learn more tolerance before you decide to come to an opinion about a person based on one comment that consisted of three sentences.

But I would think it's completely normal and natural for everyone to rant about the politics of their country, wherever they are. (Personally, I'm interested in all of it--it's interesting, whether it affects me directly or not) If there's too much American ranting on your flist proportionally, then I would suggest dropping some of the Americans and adding more people from other places.

It's not realistic to ask everyone to be aware of what's going on on everyone else's flist, after all. I have no way of knowing how many people on so-and-so's flist are ALSO ranting about US politics, after all, so I have no idea whether it's becoming tedious or not. And, honestly, how much of that is any one flist person's responsibility?

Cut tags for superlong posts of any kind are good etiquette, though. No argument there.

At first I wasn't sure how to take this, because I don't know you very well, nor do I know your 'tone'. I believe we've only spoken briefly once in chat and every once in a blue moon over comments.
However, after rereading and reading the comments, I would say that I agree.

My post was not geared towards the intelligent, informed opinion, rather the bullied version of a the how dare you vote Republican type. Unfortunatly, on my friends list, not all discussion is intelligent and as informed as one would hope. I actually posted that after a rather annoying post by someone who I consider a friend, which is why I posted my post later explaining my original post a bit more. It was my attempt to keep the peace, though I'm sure I came off as a self-rightous bitch who was crying because she saw something she didn't want to see. That wasn't my intent.

However, thank you again for your post, and the comments. You explain how I felt a lot better than I did.

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