schmevil | Captain America and Iron Man married?

I love those two pages. The writers are pretty much explicitly writing, "Hi, honey, how was work? Let's drink tea and share our days and tell us how much we appreciate (read: love) one another."

(I know I've said this to someone before; I hope it wasn't you! Repeating oneself is embarrassing. *g*)

My favorite thing about that What If? (aside from the fact that it actually managed to be slashier than the Civil War itself) was that it made it painfully, sledgehammer-to-the-reader's-head clear that the fate of the world depends on whether or not Tony and Steve live happily ever after together. Tony dies? World goes to hell. Steve dies? World goes to hell. Tony and Steve make peace and settle down to raise superpowered kids together? A golden age dawns.

it actually managed to be slashier than the Civil War itself

Truly an incredible feat. *g* These pages are pure established relationship fic - they could be transported into slash without changing a thing.

But sexy time aside, platonic Steve/Tony is so clearly Marvel's OTP, and it's not hard to see why. What bowls me over is that the writer who really reminded everyone of this is Bendis - it's like after Disassembled and New Avengers, all the other writers remembered the awesome that was their relationship way back. And then bang, they're suddenly everywhere together: Young Avengers, the Pulse, Marvel Adventures, the Spider-man books.

the fate of the world depends on whether or not Tony and Steve live happily ever after together

This is why the What Ifs actually provide hope - if Marvel ever wants to 'set things right', by their own rules they have to bring back Steve and reconcile their boys. ;)

Btw, Steve and Tony raising superpowered kids is a disturbingly amusing idea...

What bowls me over is that the writer who really reminded everyone of this is Bendis

Is there a reason why it would be unusual for it to be Bendis, in particular, who reminded people that platonic Steve/Tony is Marvel's OTP?

it's like after Disassembled and New Avengers, all the other writers remembered the awesome that was their relationship way back. And then bang, they're suddenly everywhere together: Young Avengers, the Pulse, Marvel Adventures, the Spider-man books.

It's so true! Even now that Steve is gone, every other Tony scene (in his own book or in Cap's, or in others) seems to mention him.

One thing I'm finding really interesting is that in the really old Avengers stuff (I'm at #143 right now; 1976), Steve and Tony hardly interact at all. Tony and Thor actually have more interaction and subtext, by far. I'm sort of waiting for when Tony and Steve get more time, because I know it happens eventually.

This is why the What Ifs actually provide hope - if Marvel ever wants to 'set things right', by their own rules they have to bring back Steve and reconcile their boys. ;)

It's good to have semi-canonical reassurance of what all us 'shippers are convinced of on our own. *g*

Btw, Steve and Tony raising superpowered kids is a disturbingly amusing idea...

*grins* I wasn't thinking of their own kids, specifically. It's seriously what they're doing in this What If?! They're running a non-insane version of registration together, and the whole point is to help train and guide superpowered people, especially kids and teens. They have become the daddies of the Marvel Universe. *g*

Is there a reason why it would be unusual for it to be Bendis, in particular, who reminded people that platonic Steve/Tony is Marvel's OTP?

You mean the hated Bendis, he who destroys all things good and pure? Mr. misogynistic, character-destroying, spawn of satan? ;) (I like a lot of his work, actually, despite the massive hate-goggles he wears when writing certain characters. But there is a lot of hate out there for good Mr. Bendis).

What's surprising about it, or maybe not so surprising but it's not something that was immediately obvious to me, is that the guy who systematically dismantled the Avengers, is the one who's been pushing the hardest for Steve/Tony. Not even Cap/Iron Man which is symbolically important, but Steve/Tony. It struck me that for all the flak he takes, and I've dished some of it out, he's made some changes to the Avengers mythos that really resonate with me.

He's also a writer who very obviously has crushes on his characters and certain of their relationships. He's a hardcore Luke/Jessica shipper, for example. But he doesn't seem to write a lot of true bromance - he seems to gravitate more to mentor/student. But Steve/Tony is now like the uber-bromance of Marvel. As he writes it, it's this perfectly equal, deathless love. I never realized that Bendis has a crush on Steve/Tony until I thought about. ;)

Tony and Thor actually have more interaction and subtext

Matt Fraction agrees (http://pics.livejournal.com/redorion/pic/000r8esa/).

But yeah, Tony/Thor/Don is really important to old Avengers. It's a fun odd couple-ish relationship.

*grins* I wasn't thinking of their own kids, specifically.

True, but aren't you now imagining the utter hilarity of Stark/Rogers offspring?

The Avengers break into some crazy, evil geneticist's lab:

CEG: "You can't stop me, for I have already created my masterpiece! Mua ha!" *reveals test tube StarkRogers*

Hawkeye: "Wait - that's your masterpiece? There's way better genetic material available on this team."

CEG: "By merging Captain America's incredible physical capabilities with Tony Stark's genius, I have created the perfect weapon!"

Avengers: "..."

Hawkeye: "Even Mr. Sinister's plans made more sense."

Wasp: "At least s/he's pretty."

*the Avengers break stuff, take CEG into custody*

Beast: "Have you considered what you're going to name her? Might I suggest Henrietta?"

Iron Man: "We're not NAMING her!"

Cap: "She needs a good home." *earnest* "With a family."

Scarlet Witch: "The Avengers ARE a family."

*Steve and Tony waver, Wanda makes with the hexing, hijinks ensue*

You mean the hated Bendis, he who destroys all things good and pure? Mr. misogynistic, character-destroying, spawn of satan? ;) (I like a lot of his work, actually, despite the massive hate-goggles he wears when writing certain characters. But there is a lot of hate out there for good Mr. Bendis).

*blinks in surprise* Huh. This surprises me, actually, because I was rather under the impression that there was a lot of love out there for Bendis, too. Of course, the two aren't mutually exclusive. But it's hard for me to imagine hating him, given that he wrote New Avengers 1-20 and The Confession, both of which I love desperately.

Of course, I haven't been in comics fandom for that long and I'm still in serious catching up mode, so I haven't been reading current stuff that widely. Maybe I'll come to understand the hate side of the love/hate equation later. *g*

True, but aren't you now imagining the utter hilarity of Stark/Rogers offspring?

The Avengers break into some crazy, evil geneticist's lab

*laughs at the scenario and ensuing dialogue* That would so happen in canon, too! *grins* Heck, I'm surprised it hasn't been done already. *chortles* It tempts me to write fic, it really does.

My brain coughed up this scene where the Avengers are all raising her, but she knows that Steve and Tony (who aren't a couple yet) are her genetic Dads, and one day she comes home from school terribly upset because one of her classmates has told her that when your parents aren't in love with each other they get a divorce and one of them goes away and she's all frantic and teary and demanding to know if Steve and Tony are in love with each other. It's such a cliche of this type of ficcish plot, but hey, cliches are cliches for a reason, right? *g*

So far as I can tell, a lot of the serious Bendis hate comes from his shafting of fan-favourite characters, and pushing his favourites to prominence. Hawkeye (died in Disassembled) and Spider-man (shown up by less experienced heroes and psychologically de-aged) are two that come up all the time.

I think every writer gets in trouble for this at some point. But! With Bendis there's also a certain amount of betrayal felt over how he's treated female characters, and how he's been part of creating 'nu-Marvel'.

It's such a cliche of this type of ficcish plot, but hey, cliches are cliches for a reason, right? *g*

I'm writing a hardcore cliche fic right now, actually. Cliche fic done right is the best. :)

one of her classmates has told her that when your parents aren't in love with each other they get a divorce and one of them goes away

Aww!

You know, it would almost be funnier if Henrietta Stark-Rogers (Hank won!) was convinced that her parents were already In Love. They just have an unconventional relationship, but hey, when all your parent's friends dress up in spandex and grapple with other spandex-clad people, unconventional doesn't look so strange.

Tony: "Hen, when people are IN LOVE they want to spend the rest of their lives committed to each other."

Henrietta: "You and Daddy are comidded to each other."

Steve: *mortified*

I think I see how I've missed most of the Bendis-hate, and it is mostly because I'm not that widely read. And because I only really got into comics recently. Compared to Civil War, Bendis is small potatoes. *g*

I think every writer gets in trouble for this at some point. But! With Bendis there's also a certain amount of betrayal felt over how he's treated female characters, and how he's been part of creating 'nu-Marvel'.

I have read a couple of rants about issues with female characters recently, but I didn't know they were that systematic and/or consistent from him. Also, what is "nu-Marvel"?

You know, it would almost be funnier if Henrietta Stark-Rogers (Hank won!) was convinced that her parents were already In Love. They just have an unconventional relationship

I'm now trying to imagine poor Tony and Steve trying to explain the difference between a close platonic friendship and a romantic relationship. And Tony is trying to talk about sex in terms appropriate to a young girl, and at some length he realizes that, between her own logic and things she's heard around school from other kids, Henrietta thinks that the reason he and Steve don't sleep in the same bed or have "grown up time" together is because one or both of them is incapable. As in impotent. *g* And suddenly Tony understands why his love life hasn't been doing very well in the last few months/years...

Bendis hasn't demonstrated to MY satisfaction that he's a raging misogynist.

Here (http://community.livejournal.com/scans_daily/4929811.html) are (http://community.livejournal.com/scans_daily/4860082.html) some (http://community.livejournal.com/scans_daily/4764646.html) threads (http://community.livejournal.com/scans_daily/4478247.html) that (http://community.livejournal.com/scans_daily/4182789.html) really (http://community.livejournal.com/scans_daily/3809081.html) blew up. These are just a few that culled from

scans_daily, but there is a LOT more out there.

'nu-Marvel' *rollseyes* is a way of describing the New Stark Order of post-SHRA Marvel. The idea being that Marvel has been taken over by fascist neo-cons (never mind that those two things don't go together), who are into grim n' gritty hard men, who curbstomp bleeding heart liberals like Cap, and salivate over the possibilities of stealing your civil liberties.

They're really not reading the same stories I am. ;)

And suddenly Tony understands why his love life hasn't been doing very well in the last few months/years...

Ha! I love awkward conversations with children, especially when they continually put the adults in increasingly awkward positions. ;) What's funny about the impotence suggestion is imagining Tony trying to keep his IMPOTENT?HOWDAREYOU? impulse under wraps while talking to his kid.

Do you watch Stargate Atlantis? There is an adorable, yet in character and guy-ish fic, which does this scenario masterfully. They realize that they already ARE married, reconcile themselves to it, and after all of the drama, realize they're attracted to each other and remarkably comfortable, yet hot sex ensues.

I'm going to skip the threads that really blew up and take your word for people's flailing over the issues. *g* I don't need that much drama in my fannishness!

'nu-Marvel' *rollseyes* is a way of describing the New Stark Order of post-SHRA Marvel. The idea being that Marvel has been taken over by fascist neo-cons (never mind that those two things don't go together), who are into grim n' gritty hard men, who curbstomp bleeding heart liberals like Cap, and salivate over the possibilities of stealing your civil liberties.

They're really not reading the same stories I am. ;)

*snort* Me neither. I mean, I can see where they're getting some of their drama-fodder, but I think a lot of the folk who react like this are reacting emotionally and not ever stopping to think about any of it.

Not that I wouldn't like current Marvel canon to lighten up a bit...

What's funny about the impotence suggestion is imagining Tony trying to keep his IMPOTENT?HOWDAREYOU? impulse under wraps while talking to his kid.

*grins* Oh yeah. I can just see him speaking very, very carefully, and then stepping out of earshot and blowing up at Cap because IMPOTENT?ARGH!I'LLSHOWTHEMIMPOTENT!

Do you watch Stargate Atlantis? There is an adorable, yet in character and guy-ish fic, which does this scenario masterfully. They realize that they already ARE married, reconcile themselves to it, and after all of the drama, realize they're attracted to each other and remarkably comfortable, yet hot sex ensues.

I watched the first season and part of the second before jumping ship. I have issues with the Sheppard/McKay pairing stemming from the fact that they "stole" all the authors from the pairing I was into at the time. It's irrational of me, I know, but those two still make me twitch unpleasantly as a result. *g*

I have issues with the Sheppard/McKay pairing stemming from the fact that they "stole" all the authors from the pairing I was into at the time.

Oh, that sucks! I gather that happened to a lot of people. My big fandom at the time was HP and even if several thousand writers left for greener pastures, there would still be thousands more.

What fandom were you in?

*grins* Oh yeah. I can just see him speaking very, very carefully, and then stepping out of earshot and blowing up at Cap because IMPOTENT?ARGH!I'LLSHOWTHEMIMPOTENT!</I. And that's how it begins!

What fandom were you in?

NCIS, Gibbs/DiNozzo. The worst part is, we had already lost a couple of people and were down to a tiny handful of writers worth reading. I kid you not, I could count them on my fingers. And then along came SGA...

And that's how it begins!

*grins* Oh, yes. And this scene is so much fun in my head that I'm tempted to write it. Except I'm afraid to write small children. *g*

Hot New Fandoms are always the death of the smaller fandoms. Curse the cruel, Darwinian, fannish ecology! Is NCIS still on the air? Maybe there will be a renaissance. You never know. I mean, I've been running into lots of new Highlander fic lately, for goodness sake.

Oh, yes. And this scene is so much fun in my head that I'm tempted to write it. Except I'm afraid to write small children.

I've given serious thought to writing it myself, but school is the fic-killer. So maybe in like, May, it'll show up on your flist. ;)

Hot New Fandoms are always the death of the smaller fandoms. Curse the cruel, Darwinian, fannish ecology!

*grins at the metaphor* It's so true. Alas.

Is NCIS still on the air? Maybe there will be a renaissance. You never know. I mean, I've been running into lots of new Highlander fic lately, for goodness sake.

Oh, it's still on the air. And very popular. And there are still Gibbs/DiNozzo people writing, many of them new to the fandom. But they...well, let's put it this way: they aren't authors that I'm interested in reading.

Besides, I have a new fandom love now. :-) *hearts Steve/Tony*

I've given serious thought to writing it myself, but school is the fic-killer. So maybe in like, May, it'll show up on your flist. ;)

*stealthily feeds the bunny in hopes that it will survive long enough*

Oh, it's still on the air. And very popular.

That shows you how much tv I watch. *g* I'm so out of the pop-cultural loop. I'm sorry to hear about NCIS though. It sucks when your fandnish niche starts to change on you.

Besides, I have a new fandom love now. :-) *hearts Steve/Tony*

And it's growing so quickly! It really shows what a small group of determined writers can do.

*stealthily feeds the bunny in hopes that it will survive long enough*

Well, it's already lasted an impressively long time for such a wee bunny. ;)

That shows you how much tv I watch. *g*

*g* Oddly, I find I don't watch much TV now myself. I have shows that I try to keep up with, but I watch them at my leisure instead of tuning in each week. And I'm weeks and months behind right now. I've been more interested in reading comics. *g*

re: Steve/Tony
And it's growing so quickly! It really shows what a small group of determined writers can do.

It's been really encouraging to see it grow! We will get it on a permanent foundation, I have faith. *g*

Well, it's already lasted an impressively long time for such a wee bunny. ;)

*g* It's been getting support!

And I'm weeks and months behind right now.

omg srsly. Aside from news and newsmags I watch... House sporadically, Rescue Me when I remember to catch it and writer's strike doesn't get in the way, SGA only because it's available on my movie service, and... um. I think that's it? I watched five minutes of Legion of Superheroes this morning, does that count? ;) But for a couple of years now I've been into the marathon model of tv watching, where I ignore a show for a while, then catch up all at once. It's how I read most comics, too. Makes it easier to filter out the dreck. (Hello 'The Crossing'! - have you got to that story yet?)

It's been really encouraging to see it grow! We will get it on a permanent foundation, I have faith. *g*

elspethdixon and

seanchai alone are Steve/Tony machines. It's actually become possible, in the space of something like six months, to create a S/T rec list. Which is kind of amazing for such a niche pairing. I boggle.

Aside from news and newsmags I watch...

I keep track of Numb3rs, the Mike Logan eps of L&O: Criminal Intent, and I wander in and out of Supernatural. That's...pretty much it, really.

I watched five minutes of Legion of Superheroes this morning, does that count? ;)

*laughs* I think not. *g* At this point, I wouldn't even have cable, except my roomie likes it. But she almost never watches it either. The weird thing is, if we cut out the cable and just paid for the internet (the come bundled), we'd only save something like ten bucks a month. So we might as well have the option of TV.

It's how I read most comics, too. Makes it easier to filter out the dreck. (Hello 'The Crossing'! - have you got to that story yet?)

*nods* I haven't got to that one yet, no. I've just started the comics from 1980. I know I'm going to want to power through the 90's quickly, though! And I'm already wincing at hints of the drinking arc. It's an important character arc, but it still hurts to read and I plan to go through the Avengers references to it quickly. I've already read the Iron Man portion (I skipped ahead for that), so I can just skim it when I get back to catching up on Iron Man canon.

elspethdixon and seanchai alone are Steve/Tony machines.

It's so true! I'm deeply impressed at the length and quality of stories they turn out in such short periods of time. It's amazing. And RR&R brought damn near everyone who is in the pairing into the pairing. They built this fandom almost single (double?) handedly. :-) Though I do take a certain degree of pride in the half dozen or so folks I brought over from my flist. :-)

MmmmMike Logan. He's one of the (many) reasons I love L&O reruns. I've never managed to get into Intent, though. The main character put me off from the start. It's incredibly difficult to get into a show when the central figure is irritating as all get out.

I'm staying away from SPN because a) I don't need another fan-bait show to watch; b) I don't want to be part of a fandom that's all about incest; c) it looks like it has some hinky issues about women. At least, that's how it comes off as presented by my flist. ;) I'm always like - and why do you people watch this?

It's weird, I think I would enjoy tv more if I could cut all the networks and pick a small number of specialty channels that really interest me. The day that a cable company offers that will be a day of much rejoicing. I would probably even watch more tv, if I wasn't faced with 300+ channels of Girlicious, Survivor and Tila Tequila.

Though I do take a certain degree of pride in the half dozen or so folks I brought over from my flist. :-)

As you well should. You're the primary writer of pr0n for this pairing, and as we all know, the internet is for pr0n. *g* But you also have great cracky ideas, which is so appropriate for comics fandom. Aaaand I really need to go back and give you feedback for all the stories I've been skipping lately. Once school is over. ;)

MmmmMike Logan. He's one of the (many) reasons I love L&O reruns. I've never managed to get into Intent, though. The main character put me off from the start. It's incredibly difficult to get into a show when the central figure is irritating as all get out.

I don't like Goren, either. Fortunately, the two detective teams in CI switch off, so I only get a hold of the Mike eps and then I don't have to seen Goren at all! *g*

I'm staying away from SPN because a) I don't need another fan-bait show to watch; b) I don't want to be part of a fandom that's all about incest; c) it looks like it has some hinky issues about women. At least, that's how it comes off as presented by my flist. ;)

Heh, I resisted for a long time specifically because of (a). *g* Then I got bored and wanted some TV, so I rented the first season, and it was fun. I agree on (b), too. I'm not into the fandom at all. I watch the show, but I'm not remotely interested in the fic or discussion or anything like that. I don't have an incest squick, but I don't like it, either, because I need my happy ending and that's totally impossible for an incest pairing, so I just can't get interested. To be honest, I never noticed (c), although I've heard mutterings via my flist. Personally, I don't think the writers or producers have any issues with women, acknowledged or buried. I just think that when your two continuing and main characters are both mid-20s guys that it's inevitable that a lot of the villains and damsels in distress are going to be women, especially attractive women. I don't think misogyny has anything to do with it.

I'm always like - and why do you people watch this?

*laughs* I wonder that, too! Why do so many people enjoy bashing their fannish shows so much???

I would probably even watch more tv, if I wasn't faced with 300+ channels of Girlicious, Survivor and Tila Tequila.

It's like fanfiction.net! *g* There's so much dreck that after awhile you get sick of sifting through it for the good stuff and just avoid the place altogether.

As you well should. You're the primary writer of pr0n for this pairing, and as we all know, the internet is for pr0n. *g*

*grins* I do try to provide! There was a gap that had to be filled. *is altruistic* *snickers*

But you also have great cracky ideas, which is so appropriate for comics fandom.

Comics fandom is so freeing for the cracky ideas. *g*

Aaaand I really need to go back and give you feedback for all the stories I've been skipping lately. Once school is over. ;)

I'm never going to say no to feedback. :-) :-)

Captain America and Iron Man married?

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