schmevil | Three things Iron Man

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Three things Iron Man

You can find the whole story behind this panel in She-Hulk #27. I've posted 11 pages at

scans_daily.

2. Also check out the new Iron Man Movie tv spot. Ganked from

pandanoai.

3. And finally, a new interview with Matt Fraction on Invincible Iron Man.

NRAMA: Tony has everything...well, 96% of everything anyone could ever want, and can invent that last remaining 4% before most of the world is up for breakfast. Why does he do the Iron Man thing? What itch does putting on the armor scratch for Tony?

MF: He doesn't have everything. He doesn't have immortality, superpowers, or safety. Try as he might, the future remains outside of his grasp and control. The armor is the literal realization of his self-evolution, of the triumph of human will over the human body.

And, let's not lie-- his first addiction was to adrenaline. He's an inventor and a test pilot in his very soul. Putting the armor on allows Tony to-- well, to slip the surly bonds of Earth and touch the face of god.

At, like, Mach 6.

When Fraction is talking about the character I get really excited. He seems to both *get* and love Tony Stark and Iron Man. But some of his plans leave me cold - for one, I'm really not looking forward to Obediah Stane 3.0 (2.0 being Tiberius Stone). I'd like to move away from the Battle of Geniuses! thing, and open the field to a wider range of antagonists.

The post-human collective in Warren's Hypervelocity was a particularly strong new villain for Tony, because it had the same kind of upward-and-onward ethos of technological development as Tony. Only, it was Tony warped - the idea of technological evolution of humanity taken in an entirely different, and freaking scary direction. Instead of enhancing the body, they did away with the body, in favour of pure consciousness, and temporary body-constructs. Great stuff, especially considering Tony's own body issues.

I'm also really enjoying what the Knaufs are doing with Maya Hansen and the Mandarin. They shift the focus to biotechnological evolution, which is outside of Tony's field of expertise (always a good story-telling strategy), with the added flavour of a morally, and viscerally horrifying experimental protocol. I've liked extremis from the start, but am so happy with Mandarin's plan to salt the earth with it, because: a) it's been so nicely set up; b) it's cool and not easily countered; c) it's cool.

Fraction says that Ezekiel Stane, the villain of his first arc, is going to be "younger, faster, and smarter" than Tony, but let's face it - the basis of this character is grudge-villainy. Considering that there are innumerable characters in the MU who've got a reason to be pissed with him, I really don't think Fraction needs to invent a new character, straight out of the gate, just to set Tony up for a "reckoning". I also think that this "reckoning" he's planning, would have a lot more emotional resonance if it involved the friends and allies he's alienated.

Another issue I have with Fraction's approach is his previous characterization of Tony in The Order. As SpySmasher says:

Based on Fraction's take on Stark in the Order, I'm fairly certain that his Iron Man will be:

1) A bigger asshole than ever.
2) Weaker than ever.
3) Stupider than ever.

Basically, I'm predicting Tony is going to get ____ on, month after month, in his own book. I hope I'm wrong.

Me too, dude. Me too. :|

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"Basically, I'm predicting Tony is going to get ____ on, month after month, in his own book. I hope I'm wrong."

Me too, dude. Me too. :|

Doesn't Tony get beat up on in his own book month after month anyway? Or am I filling the wrong word into the blank there? *g*

Also, by "Invicible Iron Man", do they mean Tony's main title (which I think is going by Iron Man: Director of SHIELD at the moment), or are they going to start a new title for him? Oh, comics, you can be so confusing.

I've only read the first trade of The Order, but while I did notice Tony was more assholish than we've seen him lately in his own title, I didn't notice him being either weak or stupid. Does that crop up in later issues?

I want so much to be optimistic about Tony's future...

On that note, thank you for posting the She-Hulk scans! I went to

scans_daily to look at them and they were all good, but Tony's moment was awesome. Thank goodness for that note...and I giggled at the Robert Downey Jr. comment. *g*

I think it was supposed to be 'shit' on. Newsrama is an all-ages site, and it censors profanity. Tony does get beat up all the time, and I have no problem with that. *g* What this guy is worried about, is an IM book that hates IM, and wants to punish him. I'd be more concerned about the latter.

I think he's also extrapolating from Fraction's characterization in The Order, and associating him with the hatahs. I guess the danger of wanting to 'punish' the character is that in order to make the story work, you may end up dumbing him down, making him less effective.

Also, by "Invicible Iron Man", do they mean Tony's main title (which I think is going by Iron Man: Director of SHIELD at the moment), or are they going to start a new title for him?

They're launching a second book. here's (http://schmevil.livejournal.com/101710.html) the original interview Fraction did. Basically they're going to run two 616 IM books, as well as UIM, MAIM, and maintain his appearances in MA, MAA, Ultimates, and every 616 book KNOWN TO MAN. Oh, and did I mention the crossovers?

As so many people are saying - he's the new Wolverine.

I want so much to be optimistic about Tony's future...

I have complete faith the Knauf/de la Rocca main book. If Fraction's book has even a fraction (ha!) of Director of SHIELD's unadulterated awesome, I will be a happy fan.

On that note, thank you for posting the She-Hulk scans!

I consider it my fannish obligation to spread the She-Hulk love. ;) And I was just really happy about the note, so of course I had to share.

I think it was supposed to be 'shit' on.

Ahhh, that makes more sense.

What this guy is worried about, is an IM book that hates IM, and wants to punish him. I'd be more concerned about the latter.

Okay, I understand now. And yeah, that would worry me a lot, too. But nothing I've read about Fraction makes me think he's one of the haters. Granted, I'm not very well connected when it comes to comic book gossip, but he really does sound enthused about Tony just because he's Tony. But then, as you (I think it was you? might have been

elspethdizon) said in another thread, Millar says he likes the Avengers and he still managed to write The Ultimates. So just because someone likes the character doesn't mean they aren't going to fuck them up. :-(

I think he's also extrapolating from Fraction's characterization in The Order, and associating him with the hatahs. I guess the danger of wanting to 'punish' the character is that in order to make the story work, you may end up dumbing him down, making him less effective.

Okay, I understand this better now, too. But I didn't think there was that much of Tony in The Order to extrapolate from. I've only read the first trade, but there was Tony throwing his money around (which we haven't seen much of lately but which he really does do) and there was Tony being dismissive of his own problems (when Henry asked him if he was going to meetings) and there was Tony being strict about the rules of The Order, which I really can't argue with. I'm not sure how you can extrapolate anything really awful from those three brief moments.

Ah, well. No way to know for sure until the book comes out. I'm just an eternal optimist. *g*

They're launching a second book.
[snip]
As so many people are saying - he's the new Wolverine.

*facepalm* Tony's not as popular as Wolverine! As much as I love him, I don't think he's the kind of character that can suck in a really broad audience like that. They're going to exhaust the character and the next thing you know they'll kill him off just to give the character a rest.

I can only assume that they're trying to build things up to capitalize on the movie as much as possible.

I have complete faith the Knauf/de la Rocca main book. If Fraction's book has even a fraction (ha!) of Director of SHIELD's unadulterated awesome, I will be a happy fan.

This is true. Director of SHIELD has been awesome. I don't like the style of the art very much (I'm from the school of Bright Shiny Art), but it's not my least liked style and it's very expressive, which is good. And the storytelling (both via art and writing) is awesome. *clings*

Millar says he likes the Avengers and he still managed to write The Ultimates

There should be a banner made of this. It's so perfect. ;)

They're going to exhaust the character and the next thing you know they'll kill him off just to give the character a rest.

I completely agree with you on this. Though he does make a great antagonist, so as long as they're using him as they are now (the guy everyone loves to hate, the guy who does the things that need to be done that no else can), then I think the level of exposure he has now is workable. So 'redemption' might actually be a problem - he's far more usable, in a way, as is, than as old-Tony-made-new.

Btw, how did you like the art on #27? Pagulayan is a little less gloomy than de la Torre or Guice.

Though he does make a great antagonist, so as long as they're using him as they are now (the guy everyone loves to hate, the guy who does the things that need to be done that no else can), then I think the level of exposure he has now is workable. So 'redemption' might actually be a problem - he's far more usable, in a way, as is, than as old-Tony-made-new.

Hmmmm. Yeah, this is true. The only problem with Tony as antagonist is that it sure puts his fans in a rough spot within the comics and fannish community. Which is a totally selfish problem and not one related to story at all, but it's kind of rough when 90% of fandom hates your favorite character! On the other hand, Tony has never been the kind of character who is easily and widely beloved, which is part of the reason I like him. I'm just caught in a Catch-22. *g* I want more people to like him, but I don't want his character changed into the type of character that would make more people like him! Can't I change people instead? *g*

I wonder if Tony will be an antagonist with respect to Steve when Steve comes back? That would hurt. I like them as friends.

Btw, how did you like the art on #27? Pagulayan is a little less gloomy than de la Torre or Guice.

I definitely liked it better. The injection of color made it feel a lot more vibrant and though I don't usually like art styles with a lot of lines, at least these didn't feel cluttered. I am sad that Tony continues to fail to be hot, though. I normally find him very attractive, but in this art he's just normal.

The only problem with Tony as antagonist is that it sure puts his fans in a rough spot within the comics and fannish community.

I hear you. Usually I'm good about going along, appreciating my favourite characters and not caring what other people think, but when the bashing gets really intense, it can be hard. I think it's one part over-identification ('not my guy!') and one part discomfort with other fans' over-identification ('it's only a comic book!'). I mean, there are times when the bashing makes me intensely uncomfortable - like I don't want to be around these crazy, crazy people.

With Tony I find it doubly ridiculous, since a lot of the hate is based on fictional politics. Especially when these people don't get as hot over real world political issues.

I want more people to like him, but I don't want his character changed into the type of character that would make more people like him!

I completely agree.

I wonder if Tony will be an antagonist with respect to Steve when Steve comes back? That would hurt. I like them as friends.

I wouldn't mind it in the short term, but if it became the new status quo, I think it would make me very unhappy, very quickly, and not even from a shipping perspective. I don't want Tony to be an out and out bad guy. Being Captain America's antagonist long term would more than likely turn him into Doom-lite, because even if Brubaker was still on CA, and the Knaufs on DoS, the character still exist in other books. I mean, look at what Slott and JMS did to Tony's characterization in Civil War - an astonishing amount of hate comes from stories written by those two.

I am sad that Tony continues to fail to be hot, though. I normally find him very attractive, but in this art he's just normal.

Tragedy! ;)

but when the bashing gets really intense, it can be hard. I think it's one part over-identification ('not my guy!') and one part discomfort with other fans' over-identification ('it's only a comic book!').

Yeah, I know exactly what you mean. And my over-identification always makes me feel hypocritical about criticizing other people's over-identification!

With Tony I find it doubly ridiculous, since a lot of the hate is based on fictional politics. Especially when these people don't get as hot over real world political issues.

I think a lot of them equate the fictional politics with real world politics (SHRA = Patriot Act, etc.), which is why they get so hot under the collar about it. And it's safer, socially, to express disapproval for (or through) the fictional politics than the real ones.

I wouldn't mind it in the short term

Yeah, the short term is just angst fodder. Heck, it can even become actively slashy, because if they can reconcile from that, then their bond must be very deep.

but if it became the new status quo, I think it would make me very unhappy, very quickly, and not even from a shipping perspective. I don't want Tony to be an out and out bad guy. Being Captain America's antagonist long term would more than likely turn him into Doom-lite, because even if Brubaker was still on CA, and the Knaufs on DoS, the character still exist in other books. I mean, look at what Slott and JMS did to Tony's characterization in Civil War - an astonishing amount of hate comes from stories written by those two.

Yeah. *sighs* Once upon a time I adored everything JMS did. I still like his TV and his novels and his original comics, but whenever he handles an existing character it goes in directions I'm not happy with.

Anyway, when you've got a character who is so central that he almost has to appear in everyone else's books, it's a no win situation. The title characters of those books have to be the heroes, which means Tony has to be either a bystander, a victim, or an antagonist. And he doesn't work very well in the first two roles. (Well, he works well as a victim, but his current framing doesn't allow for other heroes saving him very often.)

I am sad that Tony continues to fail to be hot, though. I normally find him very attractive, but in this art he's just normal.

Tragedy! ;)

*laughs* Hey, it's a visual medium! I want my eye candy. *g*

I think a lot of them equate the fictional politics with real world politics (SHRA = Patriot Act, etc.), which is why they get so hot under the collar about it.

As much as I see that that's where people are coming from, I don't think the Patriot Act is a good parallel for the SHRA. Or at least not in full. From what I've read, Millar was drawing on a number of different historical sources and political issues. Gun control. Internment of Japanese citizens. McCarthyism. The Patriot Act is contemporary, so it gets more attention but I don't think it quite works. It holds up only so far as the American citizens traded civil liberties for a sense of security that never materialized. But there's so much else going on in CW that people are missing because of their rage.

And it's safer, socially, to express disapproval for (or through) the fictional politics than the real ones.

Well sort of. American law enforcement agencies monitor internet chatter for omgsubversive activities. The posts about the erosion of civil liberties and cryptofascists might be flagged all the same. IT COULD BE CODE!

Yeah, the short term is just angst fodder. Heck, it can even become actively slashy, because if they can reconcile from that, then their bond must be very deep.

*happy sigh*

Yeah. *sighs* Once upon a time I adored everything JMS did.

Babylon 5?

Well, he works well as a victim, but his current framing doesn't allow for other heroes saving him very often.

This should be a new miniseries. Iron Man in Distress. With various heroes carrying him out of danger.

As much as I see that that's where people are coming from, I don't think the Patriot Act is a good parallel for the SHRA.

Neither do I, but I've seen a lot of people equate them. Which frustrates me even more, because it renders the entire reaction even more irrational.

It holds up only so far as the American citizens traded civil liberties for a sense of security that never materialized.

And, interestingly, this aspect is the one that people never bring up when they equate the two. They get up in arms over the civil liberties that are now being infringed upon and forget or ignore the fact that the American pubic was willing to make that sacrifice. I think they'd get up in arms even if it had worked. The people who are so angry about the SHRA ignore that, at the time it was voted in, it had overwhelming support from the general public.

But there's so much else going on in CW that people are missing because of their rage.

So true. Sometimes I think people want to be angry and get their hate on.

Well sort of. American law enforcement agencies monitor internet chatter for omgsubversive activities. The posts about the erosion of civil liberties and cryptofascists might be flagged all the same. IT COULD BE CODE!

*g* Actually, I meant "socially" as in, it's less likely to create tension among friends and family.

Babylon 5?

*nods* And Midnight Nation, which is an original graphic novel he did. And I liked the beginning of his run on Amazing Spider-Man, but it went in directions I didn't like after just a few issues.

This should be a new miniseries. Iron Man in Distress. With various heroes carrying him out of danger.

*laugh* That would be so awesome. And there should be an issue with Pepper and/or Happy carrying him out of distress, too. *grins*

As so many people are saying - he's the new Wolverine.

::has urge to make an icon to this effect...::

(fight it panda fight it!!)

Doooooo eeeet.

Also? Your icon? Made me teh ded. *is ded*

it has that affect on a lot of people

::stares at icon fondly::

Sing it, sister! I actually really loved Hypervelocity. I was forced to read it after a friend whose taste I really trust told me I had to read or else he'd end his friendship with me, and that was, you know, a pretty STRONG recommendation, so I read it and was pleasantly surprised. I still hate the way Tony's written by now, I still don't think that Marvel has had Tony say anything interesting in character since round about 2004 (right at the dawn of Bendis' ascent to creative monopoly), and I still think he's being a massively fascist twat that can't get enough beatings for my liking over the next five years because of the role he played in Steve's death and the patronizing and horrific way he treated Jen, but I still do love him as a character. I just love OLD Tony. One day, that awesomely loyal Tony will come back and wow me again.

Unfortunately, Matt Fraction is not the person to write me that Tony. Fuck off, Fraction.

I had some issues with Hypervelocity. I thought the technobabble got out of control, to the point where it was colonizing every other part of the story - so instead of plot we got AMRAMS, and instead of characterization we got AMRAMS. But overall it was great and it showed what you could do with IM if you pushed the concept a bit further than most writers are comfortable with.

I still hate the way Tony's written by now

I'm not going to lie. I love Director of SHIELD. The next time that Fannish Unpopular Opinions goes around, mine will be "the Knaufs are great!" ;)

I also think that Bendis kind of gets the character, but that he would do better with Tony, and with the rest of the Avengers, if he didn't have such unlimited control over creative decisions. If he was forced to tighten up his scripts, and take himself out of the story, I think he'd be a much better writer. He's done some good work, but he's also done some really horrible work, and I don't think it's a coincidence that the bad stuff came after he became a 'superstar'.

the patronizing and horrific way he treated Jen

God, that was really terrible. It was also out of character even for the new eviler Tony. I'm still uncomfortable that Marvel thought this story was a good idea - it's got the same kind of nasty, sexual connotations that make the Tigra debacle so repellent, but it was played so lightly. I think they'll have an easier time of absolving Tony of all his other crimes, because this one can't be justified on the basis of the greater good. (Not that I'm saying he actually acted for the greater good, but that's his justification). There's really no way to spin shooting the Hulk into space, sleeping with his cousin, injecting her with experimental technology when she confronts you, and then publicly humiliating her.

All three little tv blips are here:

http://www.superherohype.com/news/topnews.php?id=6988

Also--

Thank you for the She-Hulk moments! I really enjoyed the RDJ nod.

----I also think that this "reckoning" he's planning, would have a lot more emotional resonance if it involved the friends and allies he's alienated.
I am in complete agreement with you here! Let's just hope a "going up against a common foe" angle can help Tony out a bit with the few friends who are still willing to talk to him... >_>

Ooo, thanks for the link.

help Tony out a bit with the few friends who are still willing to talk to him...

You know, it's funny. I've been thinking about the whole Tony's-friends-now-hate-him thing, and if we break it down, he hasn't actually alienated too many friends. There's like... Peter and Clint. Most of the people who matter to him are on his side ~~or dead~~. And of the friends who are on his side, the one who's doubting him the most is Carol, but I suspect that by the end of SI they'll be about where they are now. *shrug*

I think it's more that lots of people in the superhuman community don't trust him, and some blame him for Cap's death. But! How many of those people trusted him before CW? I know that I wouldn't have trusted him.

Anyway. ;)

Peter, Clint, (Thor), The Hulk (but he doesn't count >.>)

But! How many of those people trusted him before CW? I know that I wouldn't have trusted him.
---hmmmm this could be true...

Cap was the one who trusted him the most really, and kept believing in him... (that didn't end well did it...--- OH! unless you count the postmortem letter Cap gave Tony! Even after everything they'd been through Cap still trusts Tony to end up doing the right thing/what Cap would want )

so there's that...

=^__^=

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Three things Iron Man

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